56 replies to this topic

[travis bickle]

great post walkfish-plus 1+.........

the cheapest testoviron ampules ? the pharmacy near timsbeer bar on 2nd road...140 baht per ampule( i ve never seen them for less than 180 before)...makes abig difference if your buying a box.

[thegman]

Hi,


Some good advice by Walkfish. Here are some of my experiences regarding TRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy), not for bodybuilding. I don't post much so trying to give a bit back here to a good forum.

Men at any age but especially after mid 30's can have a sudden drop in testosterone levels for many different reasons. TRT can make such an amazing difference to quality of life (as it has with me) it would be unfair of me not to share my very positive experiences.

The symptoms of low test levels are higher fat levels, low energy, low libido and weak erections, constant tiredness, general apathy- but the biggest single indicator is no nocturnal or morning erections.

Before you start meddling with your endocrine system, you should do as much research as possible. The T-Replacement forum at T-Nation is a good resource.

It is quite true that your body will shut down natural production, and as a consequence of that the balls will shrink. Exactly the dose / timeline that will cause this will vary from individual to individual.

I had felt my libido drop to the point where I was hardly interested in sex, and just generally lifeless and fed up. This has happened over the previous year or so - gradually but I knew something was wrong within me. I stumbled across some stuff on the net and thought it was worthy of further investigation. Had my Testosterone level checked and it was low (274). I was 36 at the time.

I started with the Andriol capsules which had some effect but nothing too dramatic. I knew that the only effective way to get the test into the system is by injection, which didn't fill me with delight.

On more reading I learned that the average male produces around 100mg of testosterone a week naturally, and that should be the starting dose for a TRT regimen.

Many of the older protocols recommend injections every 2 or 3 weeks. This was to minimalise inconvenience to patients visiting doctors surgeries for the jabs- but due to the half life of the esters in the test it is impossible to achieve stable blood results on this schedule, and you will always be on a rollercoaster.

I tried a few different ways, and monitored my blood levels all the time during "tuning" for the first 3 months. Testosterone "aromatizes" into Estrogen, so it is important to monitor E2 (estradiol) levels, as sometimes pumping testosterone in is only driving E higher, which means moods, bloating, sulking and ultimately a risk of stroke, feeling worse thatn when you started the treatment. This again varies enormously from person to person, thats why monitoring blood results is important. Lots of info on the web, google testosterone replacement therapy forum - loads of different resources with loads of info.

I started off on once a week shots of 100mg of testosterone cypionate. I got a friend to do the jabs in the glute. The response was amazing - but after I read more, I found people were getting the best results with bi-weekly shots. I also discovered that these can be done sub-q into the abdomen with an insulin syringe. It took a bit of getting used to, but now it is absolutely painless, and I feel amazing. Great energy, mental clarity...my libido has settled down a bit thank god - I was getting myself into trouble for the first few months. I have nighttime boners and get extremely horny. It is a complete difference from one year ago. I also use arimidex as an AI (anti-estrogen) - only a quarter of a tablet twice a week. Arimidex is the best AI for TRT (so many terms to learn lol) but expensive at over 5000 baht for 30 tabs. I pay 7500 for original astra-zenica, one box lasts me a year so I buy the good stuff. With this test+adex combo I keep T levels at around 750 and E2 around 22. That seems to be the sweet spot for me, but again it varies from individual to individual, and factors such as body fat and metabolism can affect these numbers greatly. Some people do need to jab 250mg a week and take quadruple the AI to get the same results as me, others only half my dose. You have to be prepared to be your own lab rat. I have lost 10 kg of body fat and have massive increases in strength even at such a small dose. It is very tempting to run a light 500mg a week cycle !

We are lucky living in Thailand, many people have to jump through hoops to get prescriptions for this - but here it is cheap and easy to self medicate - but you must educate yourself or you could do serious permanent damage. Imagine no more erections, ever, even with Viagra. Do your homework. But there is a plethora of cheap meds here for those interested.

The "best" testosterone product available here is Bayer-Schering Testoviron 250, which comes in a 1ml ampule with a dose of 250mg. IMO, that is too much for a single TRT dose, so I would preload syringes and keep them in the fridge. A box of 20 amps should cost around 3000 baht. I get fed up of this sometimes, so also have on hand a 10ml "multidose" vial, which you stick the pin in, draw your dose and then put back in the drawer with no mess. There are various products in multivial - but they are all UGL (underground lab) so there is no guarantee of dosing/contaminants. There was talk that Asia-Pharma were now Thai FDA approved. They are made in India and a 10ml vial will cost around 1200 baht (lasts around 3 months) - not really much cheaper than Testoviron but more convenient. If anyone has seen multidose vials of Testoviron please let me know.

A box of 100 X one piece insulin syringes with needles is around 500 baht. You can do this quite cheaply and the results are quite staggering.

If anyone has any questions about TRT I will do my best to answer them - but I am not a doctor. And please don't ask me where to buy stuff - that information is all over the Thai forums steroids threads already. Educate yourself first before you start injecting yourself with hormones.


Regards

[Jason_Bourne]

My Anticlimatic Follow Up

Well, I went ahead with my plan to try the testosterone, after talking it over with my GF. She is accustomed to using hormones, so she did not think I would have any problem. I went into the first pharmacy I went by on Central, told them what I wanted, and they immediately brought out some vials without question. Cost was a bit high - 200baht, and I purchased two to start with, thinking I would use one a week.

Nong took me to a clinic she used to go to on Soi Buakhao. We told them I needed someone to give me an injection, and when they saw what it was they made a little joke about making sure it was for me and not for Nong. Ha!

Went into a cubicle, pulled down the pants, laid flat on the bed. The medic/nurse/doctor/whatever she was in white got the syringe ready, pulled down my shorts, sterilized the target and gave me the shot. Very little pain, if any. No problems with the size of the needle, or the length.

So far, so good.

But . . .

I never felt any of the effects I was hoping for. I had wanted to try the testosterone for mood and for libido. Turns out, with Nong, my libido was more than sufficient. Kudos to the BM who mentioned this earlier in the thread!

Likewise, I did not notice any discernible difference in mood.

What I did notice, was a general feeling of something not quite right. This is very difficult to explain, but I work out enough that I am aware of my body and notice if something is different. Something was different, but it was not pleasant. Not bad. But not good, either. This began a day or so after the shot and continued through the end of the week.

At the end of the week, I decided I did not like what was happening, and did not want to compound any potential risk. I threw away the second vial, and that was that.

I suppose that various possibilities exist. I could have gotten a bad batch. I could have needed another week before noticing the results I sought. What I felt could have come from something else. Another injection may have given me everything I was seeking.

I will never know. I do not intend to try this again. I am happy for those who do and get good results.

Thank you to all who gave advice on this thread and all who PMed me with further advice and suggestions.

Edited by Jason_Bourne, 12 April 2011 - 12:34 AM.

[jasonbalmer]

thegman, on 18 March 2011 - 05:36 PM, said:

Hi,

Some good advice by Walkfish. Here are some of my experiences regarding TRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy), not for bodybuilding. I don't post much so trying to give a bit back here to a good forum.

...

If anyone has any questions about TRT I will do my best to answer them - but I am not a doctor. And please don't ask me where to buy stuff - that information is all over the Thai forums steroids threads already. Educate yourself first before you start injecting yourself with hormones.

gman,

Thank you for the informative posting on this topic. Very much appreciated.

I have a few questions, some specific to this in Pattaya, that I was hoping you might answer.

1 - You mention blood level monitoring. Where do you get this done in PTY? And what's the timing on getting blood work versus injections? How much should I expect to pay?

2 - You mention Arimidex as an anti-estrogen. Is there a particular pharmacy that you would recommend for this?

3 - You wrote

Quote

I started off on once a week shots of 100mg of testosterone cypionate. I got a friend to do the jabs in the glute. The response was amazing - but after I read more, I found people were getting the best results with bi-weekly shots. I also discovered that these can be done sub-q into the abdomen with an insulin syringe. It took a bit of getting used to, but now it is absolutely painless, and I feel amazing.

I like the idea of frequent sub-q as opposed to weekly or bi-weekly IM. I think I could actually do the sub--q myself. IM -- forget it.

Is the sub-q route only practical with testosterone cypionate? I had understood that (some of?) these products were oil suspensions that I thought would be difficult to push thru a small sub-q needle.

4 - The various esters can be a bit confusing. To compound that, apparently Testoviron comes in two varieties: one that is only Testosterone Enanthate, a long ester that is slow in getting converted by the body, and another that is a blend of Testosterone Enanthate and Testosterone Propionate where the propionate is quick acting. Is that correct? Do they really have the same product name for two different blends?

And the there's testosterone cypionate that you mention -- what product is that? Or does one just ask the pharmacist for the preferred variety?

5 - If I have to go the IM route, is there a clinic that you (or any other helpful board member) could recommend? What's a reasonable charge and does it include the syringe/needle or do I need to bring that from the pharmacy?

Thanks again for your contribution to our understanding.

[Malakor]

jasonbalmer, on 17 April 2011 - 03:27 PM, said:

5 - If I have to go the IM route, is there a clinic that you (or any other helpful board member) could recommend? What's a reasonable charge and does it include the syringe/needle or do I need to bring that from the pharmacy?

Hi JB,

Never used him myself, but some have been to see Dr Olivier [@ Soi Day & Night] as he does the full monty with regards to blood tests and treatments. Probably not the cheapest, but if you feel happier about seeing a Swiss doctor then this is maybe the best route to take.

http://www.dr-olivie...com/English.htm

Edited by Malakor, 17 April 2011 - 07:23 PM.

[MortenXL]

Instead of medication

1. 20 mins fat burning exercises every morning and evening
2. More zinc
3. More vitamin c

Sounds like the long route though, so much easier with a shot. Or is it...

[jasonbalmer]

MortenXL, on 17 April 2011 - 11:31 PM, said:

Instead of medication

1. 20 mins fat burning exercises every morning and evening
2. More zinc
3. More vitamin c

Sounds like the long route though, so much easier with a shot. Or is it...

This, of course, is good advice irrespective of Testosterone considerations.

For the past 8 years I have spent 6 - 7 days a week at the gym doing an aerobic fitness regimen. 45 to 60 minutes each session, 600 - 800 calories burnt per session. And I take vitamin and mineral supplements as well. It may be worth noting that Vit C, in excess, can contribute to stomach bleeding -- an important consideration for those of us who are also doing some aspirin for mild blood thinning.

But despite all this good work, time takes it's toll, even on the most dedicated of us.

[jasonbalmer]

Malakor, on 17 April 2011 - 07:22 PM, said:

Hi JB,

Never used him myself, but some have been to see Dr Olivier [@ Soi Day & Night] as he does the full monty with regards to blood tests and treatments. Probably not the cheapest, but if you feel happier about seeing a Swiss doctor then this is maybe the best route to take.

http://www.dr-olivie...com/English.htm

Yes, I know of him and would expect quality work from him. Thanks for the suggestion.

[angelo]

pay attention with testosterone guys,
if you are under 40 age don' uese because while you put teststerone from otside yourypofisis don't work ...
after you may stay long time without sex desire.
If you are 40 YEARS OLDER you can try Sustanon injection, 1 for week for 6 week, and 50 mg./100 mg pills of proviron daily for reduce the problem of rebound.
from 6 week take 100 mg. of pills pills for 3 week:
from 1st to 6th week 1 injection of sustanon 100 mg.
from 1st to 5th week 50 mg. of Proviron daily
from 6th to 9th week 100 mg of provron daily

ask sustanon from Pakistan in pharmacy cheapest price box of 3 ampules..
in soi buakkao side Pook gogo bar, kind doctor, good prices..
Angelo

[Solice]

Injecting anabolic steroids into subcutaneous tissue! you have to be kidding me.

ALL anabolic/androgenic steroids should be injected deep into the muscular tissue (intramuscular) where they can release slowly into the bloodstream.
If you have genuine testosterone you would never get it through an insulin needle, I sometimes struggle with a blue pin unless I warm the liquid up and for some pharmacy grade steroids it is even worse, espically the likes of Testoviron Depot by Schering.

If you inject testostorone into subcutaneous tissue you run the risk of inflammation, abscesses and possibly septic shock.

Guys do not mess with steroids unless you do your own homework, do not listen to advice and administration from somebody on a forum. I see guys down the gym dishing out information in good faith that makes my hair stand on end. I spent over two years researching them before I went near a needle.

One of my older friends who has been injecting for years has just had two main muscles removed from his leg due to infection and this guy knew what he was doing!!

If you want to read up on them then a good place to start is with information by William LLewellyn, hes what you might call a professional and thats the only advice you should be acting on.

Be careful

Solice

[jasonbalmer]

Solice, on 20 May 2011 - 03:29 AM, said:

Injecting anabolic steroids into subcutaneous tissue! you have to be kidding me.

ALL anabolic/androgenic steroids should be injected deep into the muscular tissue (intramuscular) where they can release slowly into the bloodstream.
If you have genuine testosterone you would never get it through an insulin needle, I sometimes struggle with a blue pin unless I warm the liquid up and for some pharmacy grade steroids it is even worse, espically the likes of Testoviron Depot by Schering.

If you inject testostorone into subcutaneous tissue you run the risk of inflammation, abscesses and possibly septic shock.

Guys do not mess with steroids unless you do your own homework, do not listen to advice and administration from somebody on a forum. I see guys down the gym dishing out information in good faith that makes my hair stand on end. I spent over two years researching them before I went near a needle.

One of my older friends who has been injecting for years has just had two main muscles removed from his leg due to infection and this guy knew what he was doing!!

If you want to read up on them then a good place to start is with information by William LLewellyn, hes what you might call a professional and thats the only advice you should be acting on.

Be careful

Solice

Solice,

Thanks for your info.
Some of us are doing our research and it's difficult to sort out the correct info from the other stuff. But we persevere.

I'm sorry to hear your disparagement of sub-q. It sounded like a good and easy way to go.
But, of course, sounding good doesn't make for validity.

So anyway, I'll continue my quest, All I want is a 30 yo libido for my 60 yo body.
Is that too much to ask? (Apparently, yes)

[Solice]

jasonbalmer, on 21 May 2011 - 04:36 AM, said:

Solice,

Thanks for your info.
Some of us are doing our research and it's difficult to sort out the correct info from the other stuff. But we persevere.

I'm sorry to hear your disparagement of sub-q. It sounded like a good and easy way to go.
But, of course, sounding good doesn't make for validity.

So anyway, I'll continue my quest, All I want is a 30 yo libido for my 60 yo body.
Is that too much to ask? (Apparently, yes)

Jason, you just need to take a look at the evidence, there is not one hospital in the world that would give a test injection via an insulin needle, im sure that if you asked jason or travis or anybody else where the injection was given I can say with 100% certainty it will have been deep into the muscle, you then need to ask why is that when it would be far simpler to put it into the fatty tissue.

I understand that you want a good libido but if you are unsure about needles or injecting yourself then there are plenty of good testosterone boosting tablets on the market. Some people take to these far better than others but it is worth a try. If you need pointing in the right direction with these then I am more than happy to try and help because after all they are a natural and legal product.

Solice

[TLok]

I am curious about the testi creams are they available OTC in a Thai pharmacy? I would love to massage the wife with some just to get her alive again. So what I am asking will it work on women?

[Ganryu]

I'm not going to comment on the steroid issue as there has been plenty of information presented here already. I would like to comment on selecting a suitable sit for IM injection. I would be very careful doing self administered IM injections in the dorsogluteal (ass) site due to the risk of hitting and damaging the sciatic nerve; something you definitely don't want to do! I give 100's of these a year at work, and rarely use the DG site for this reason. I personally prefer to use the ventrogluteal (hip) site, which is the site recommended in most evidence based literature; my secondary site especially if self administering would be the vastus lateralis (thigh) as its generally a nice easy muscle to get hold of,.

If all that seems confusing don't worry, I recently read a research article on the subject, and over 70% of nurses still choose the VG despite it not being the recommended site for over 20 years.....and patients pay the price when it goes wrong.

Either way just take care.

[roscoe]

mik, on 26 February 2011 - 12:29 PM, said:

I've been checking out andriol testocaps , an oral form of increasing testosterone that is not absorbed by the liver , and has less side effects.
Has anyone had any experience with these?

The only problem with these is that if you take them with Tylenol and alcohol (not unusual to add these in Patts) you will overtax your liver ... you can get sick

Injected testosterone is much easier on the body (though still elevates blood pressure...especially at larger doses ... I've had the experience)

[Slacker]

MortenXL, on 17 April 2011 - 11:31 PM, said:

Instead of medication

1. 20 mins fat burning exercises every morning and evening
2. More zinc
3. More vitamin c

Sounds like the long route though, so much easier with a shot. Or is it...

I'll endorse the above post. Many are thinking of tinkering with drugs that they little understand or may be inappropriate for what they require. Most of the time a little exercise, a good diet and less alcohol will see a dramatic improvement in your performance. Having had a 'shot across the bows' from my liver, I wouldn't dream about further risking my health by tinkering with hormone levels and increasing the load on an organ (liver) that will probably be tested to extreme anyway on a visit to Thailand. For what it's worth, I asked a nutritionist about a little leg-up when I visit the gym and was recommended a supplement called ZMA with the hint that "Your wife will appreciate it too".... I wasn't expecting much, but morning stiffies are almost becoming a nuisance and I do feel invigorated. Of course, this may be the result of the gym visits, but that's my point...it sure beats the hell out of injecting stuff I know little about.

[AznBoyCols]

So, injection or the patch is easier on the liver than a pill form of testosterone?